The Intuition Network, A Thinking Allowed Television Underwriter, presents the following transcript from the series Thinking Allowed, Conversations On the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery, with Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove.


JEFFREY MISHLOVE, Ph.D.: Hello and welcome. Our topic today is "Communication as Healing," and my guest, Patricia Sun, is well known throughout the United States, and in fact throughout the world, as a communicator, an expert in conflict resolution, and as a healer. Patricia is a graduate of the University of California with a B.A. and a B.S. degree; has worked at the Institute of Personality Assessment and Research, and now has an independent practice as a consultant, a speaker, and seminar leader. Patricia, welcome to the program.

PATRICIA SUN: Thank you, Jeff. It's nice to see you.

MISHLOVE: It's a pleasure to have you here. The topic of communication as healing is very interesting. I suppose it goes back to Freud's notion of the talking cure -- that somehow by helping to direct the attention of another person, through that process of attention healing occurs. That's an area that you've focused in on quite a bit, is individual attention, isn't it?

SUN: Yes, and I think for me it evolved in a somewhat similar way as it did for Freud, in that he kind of stumbled upon it, really, talking to people. I was doing family counseling, and in the course of doing it, I started knowing things that clients hadn't told me. For instance, I would start to get a feeling, I would be talking to someone, and she would be telling me something, and I'd start to be thinking of something else. And I'd think, "Oh, Patricia, pay attention." I'd try to pay attention, and as I'd focus again I'd think it more. And it was peculiar. So I said, "You know, I keep thinking something," and I said it, and she burst into tears. What I was picking up was a trauma that had happened to her when she was very young.

MISHLOVE: Somehow your subconscious mind felt it.

SUN: Was picking it up.

MISHLOVE: You were feeling it in your body somehow.

SUN: Exactly. I was tuned in to her. It happened both emotionally in imagery, and physically in terms of the healing part. Physically I would feel stress in people's bodies. Sometimes almost like in my mind's eye, too, I would see like a dark spot, or a contracted place, and I'd say, "Do you have a stomach ache?" or something like that. It's interesting, though; we got to be so comfortable about it that we were doing a lot of what is called clairvoyance, or intuitive or psychic or whatever you want to call it things were happening, but they were almost seeming normal, because we were so enwrapped in really looking at what was going on and trying to heal it and pay attention. And I notice with some people they almost never notice, and it would be afterwards we'd reflect on it and say, "That was funny. How did we know that? How did that happen?"

MISHLOVE: Isn't that when it kind of happens best, when you're not even paying attention to it?

SUN: Oh, absolutely.

MISHLOVE: It just sneaks in there.

SUN: It's so natural. I have a theory now that we all do it all the time, and we just have a mind set against knowing things we can't know logically.

MISHLOVE: For many people, as soon as you were to identify that as psychic, then it stops. They shut down.

SUN: Exactly so. In fact, this is totally an aside, but I was at a luncheon that was reporters, women reporters. The woman who was giving the luncheon introduced me as a psychic, and I thought, "Oh God, no, she shouldn't do that, because all these women reporters are going to just pounce on me." They were like from the New York Times. The first thing they said was, "Well, what is psychic? What do you mean by that?" And then I just started talking about, "You know, like when the phone rings and you expect someone, or just little things like that." And it turned out every single person in the whole luncheon, we all talked about psychic experiences we'd had. Every single one of them had had some.

MISHLOVE: People are dying to talk about it.

SUN: It was really more normal than the sort of ideology or program we have.

MISHLOVE: I think it's happening today the way ten years ago people discovered it was OK to talk about sex.

SUN: Yes, it is a little bit like that. I agree.

MISHLOVE: It's a taboo topic that's now beginning to --

SUN: And you know, like sex it's a vital need. It's an inherent ability, it's a spontaneous, natural, healthy function. And as you were saying healing is communication, what I found is that one of the reasons why people become ill is that they have grief or trauma or some kind of happening which has happened to them, that they haven't been able to process out. It's sort of sealed in, by shame, by self-judgment, by self-criticism, by families' dynamics, that we don't talk about this. And it's almost like an automatic pilot, I call it. I can feel patterns in people; I call them tapes, like cassette tape programming. And they are often running on automatic, and what therapy is that tends to be healing, physically and emotionally, is when you break through these tapes and become aware of them.

MISHLOVE: This reminds me of one of the times when I was with you -- I don't remember, a workshop, a radio program -- maybe about ten years ago, and you described, or I maybe even witnessed, somebody coming to you and saying, "Oh, I feel terrible." And you said, "Great!"

SUN: That's right, that's right. Yes, that's true.

MISHLOVE: I've used that technique in my own practice, and it's wonderful. People just love it.

SUN: I know. And sometimes they don't love it right at first, as this lady that I was describing at the time. Why I said "Great!" -- for people wondering in the audience why it's great -- is that when you feel awful, you're right on the verge of facing something and letting go of a drama that's probably been complicating your life and suppressing your ability to be creative, to be free, to be aware, to be intuitive, for a long time.

MISHLOVE: Time to process it.

SUN: Yes. And when you're feeling anxious and you're feeling fear, it's that you're at the gateway of it; you're at the very beginning of the release of it. And so all the programming that ever said, "You should never do this," or "You can't do that," or "Don't ever say that," is all coming up in like an anxiety, into a panic. And so that's why it does often precede it. It's not causal, but it is part of the release, in that since it's already there, when you face it you've gone through it, and then you're free from it.

MISHLOVE: So in helping people just to face their own blocks, that loosens it up.

SUN: Oh, wonderfully. See, I really believe, from lots of experience, that everybody's body is naturally healthy, wants to be healthy. It is sort of -- forgive me -- God's order. There is a nature, there is an order, there is a harmony that holds the planets in place, and the molecules and the atoms inside your body and mine, that make us as we are. There's a reason why snowflakes take their shape, and when you cut yourself it grows back together. And for all that science talks about everything, we really don't know why if you have a cut it grows back together. It is part of that other energy. What I find in that other energy that makes things heal, whether it's with animals or plants or people, is that the feeling of love is a very real thing. It is not a make-nice. When I say love, I don't mean make nice to somebody or do what they want or tell them what they want to hear. I mean a kind of radiance, a kind of feeling that you feel inside that you just feel good for them, and you wish them well. I mean, I have healed plants and animals and people. I remember once I did a thing, I experimented with a leaf, and it was torn off the plant. And I kept it green and alive for almost four months, just sending it love every day.


SUN: It was just an experiment.

MISHLOVE: Now, let me ask you this, because obviously you're a very radiant person. It shows in your face, even in your name, and of course it's reflected in your life's work. But healing as communication -- I should think what you're saying is that radiance is not necessarily from the healer to the other person, but it's almost as if the healer awakens the other person's own radiance; that we all have that. Everybody's a Patricia Sun.

SUN: Exactly right. And you know, that's one of the things that's so wonderful to me now, that it's becoming more recognized in the world that we really do have a lot of talents and abilities we're not using. I mean, I don't think there's anybody alive -- I know a lot of very successful, wonderful people, and I don't know anyone who thinks they're using all their potential, or anywhere near it. I think one of the frontiers -- in fact the way I say it in workshops is that I believe that the human race is in the midst of an evolutionary leap, and that this evolutionary leap is one of consciousness, a capacity to perceive. So it isn't just new information, though that will happen; it is actually that we are awakening to potentials that are really within us, and that that which is releasing it is our facing how we've been afraid of it. And it does have to do with a new style of thinking which is a little bit more complicated and philosophical, that I believe that we are using our intuition more in integrating it with our logic instead of having logic be dominant over it, but have them be not even fifty-fifty, but one hundred percent-one hundred percent together.

MISHLOVE: Well, it seems as if we're coming out of maybe a five-hundred-year period where the intellect was sort of dominant, since the Renaissance.

SUN: Exactly.

MISHLOVE: The industrial era, and the age of enlightenment, which meant rational enlightenment. Now it's incumbent upon us to achieve balance. We need to do it, so we're doing it.

SUN: Exactly so, that's right.


SUN: Yes; no, I think we are. And I think there's a little bit of a crisis that precedes the doing of it, and part of the crisis has to do with we tend to look at logic as equivalent to reality, and what logic is, is a tool for sorting and discerning reality. And reality is bigger than logic can hold. A whole half of our brain, our whole right brain, is the one that sees the gestalt -- the more than the sum of the parts, the whole, the bigger-than. You need the linear side to sort out and give you information, and it's wonderful; yet you also need the feeling, the intuitive, the authentic sense of self-knowing side. And I say it like that particularly because apropos to healing, and all of us waking up -- in our relationships, to have authentic relationships where we really see one another and we don't just project our fantasies and our wishes and then be angry at the other person because they haven't fulfilled our fantasy. We begin to become so intuitive, so open to one another, that we genuinely feel each other, and we don't then dislike, as logic would, any error, or anything mistaken or wrong. You know that then all mistakes are just fuel for becoming more aware. And you have to go through mistakes; you have to make them if you're alive. I mean, only dead people don't make mistakes. So part of the challenge of creativity is to try this and to try that and to try this, as thoughtfully as you can muster, of course; but when it doesn't work, instead of feeling bad, say, "Hey, that didn't work." That's as much good information as, "Hey, that did work."

MISHLOVE: The only way one makes good decisions is through experience, and the only way we get experience is by making mistakes.

SUN: Exactly.

MISHLOVE: You know, what you were saying earlier about this intuitive, the right side of the brain, reminds me of the well-known words of a song David Pomerantz wrote. Part of it goes, "We can all know everything without ever knowing why." And in terms of healing, I suppose we could talk a lot about the mechanisms, the scientific studies, the diagrams and so on, but at some level, when one is operating out of this holistic way of being, it just comes. The knowledge is already there, isn't it?

SUN: Absolutely right, and our problem is that we program it out. We actually set up defenses to not trust it. I gave a lecture fairly recently, not too long ago, to Stanford Medical School, and it was primarily professors and teachers and students there, and it was interesting, because -- well, a simple description that I gave was, "Imagine the day that comes when a doctor is trained to know the anatomy and the structure and so on, so that if you break your leg they have certain experiential knowledge about how your leg should be reset. But as they reset your leg, and as they work on it, they are so attuned to you particularly, and your leg particularly, such a resonant feeling and awareness, that as they begin to work on your leg, they are sending healing, they are slowing down the blood flow, they are very attuned to your particular fracture or bone fragment or whatever is going on." That is what art is. It's the same ingredient and quality that allows a Japanese sword maker to be a master, and know intuitively by feeling when the metal is ready, and how it needs to be layered. Or Michelangelo, who would go into the quarries, and he was as remarkable at being a stonecutter and picking the right stone. He described it as he would go look, and he'd look till he saw the statue trapped inside the rock. So then he had a piece of rock that all the veins, all the splits, all the cracks, were all appropriate and perfect to go all around the statue he wanted to build. Now that's some talent that all human beings really have, and when we get super logical as a defense, we screen it out, we don't let the intuitive mind speak to us. And it comes through imagination, which is why we mistrust it.

MISHLOVE: I did meet a surgeon who was living in Boulder, Colorado --

SUN: Good ones are like that.

MISHLOVE: -- in fact healing broken bones from skiing accidents, who was doing just that. He was using both the healing from his own hands to set the bones, as well as his medical skill.

SUN: Excellent. And you know, so many doctors would love to do this, and do have it as a calling and have it within them. I remember once giving a workshop at a very large holistic health conference, and doctors came up, I would say about a dozen of them, and many of them crying, saying, "You know, I'm not only a doctor anymore, I'm a healer." They felt the bridge. And you see, it's an emotional thing. It's very difficult. And doctors are pretty much trained in schools to be unemotional. Well, that's absurd. If you're in a life-and-death situation, or even just where someone's under stress or something is harmed in them, to be empathetic is a powerful tool. Not to be wiped out by it, of course, but to be empathetic
enough --

MISHLOVE: You used the term resonance before. Let's talk about resonance.

SUN: Good.

MISHLOVE: For example, you work with resonance as a form of sound, and that has some healing abilities. Why don't we start there?

SUN: OK. It's a little difficult to describe -- I mean, we're going to the very extreme of words. But the sounds that I make came very intuitively. They were something I did not want to do. In fact it's only fair, I think, to say that a woman clairvoyant in California had told me while I was still working at the Institute of Personality Assessment, and there was someone there whose girlfriend had gone to see her, and she gave the girlfriend all this information, and it was very clairvoyant. I was thinking, "Well, I'd like to hear it." And I did; he let me listen to the tape. When I listened to the tape, I realized there really was more than just logical knowing. And it was like a key turned in my head, and from that moment forward, actually -- I call it I opened. It's because my linear mind convinced me there was more than linear. This is important to this resonance issue, because --

MISHLOVE: Like a recursive function or something -- the self knowing the self.

SUN: Yes, and you must sort of trust more. You have to realize you don't know everything all the time. And the more you know you don't know, the more you know, and the more you realize you don't know. And it's the same with consciousness. The more conscious you get, the more unconscious you realize you are. You become more and more aware, so your whole foundation is bigger. So there's a funny combination of innocence and openness. And the linear mind precludes resonance, because it says, "What's the right answer? What's the correct place, and how do you hold it?" And growth and resonance have to do with receptivity as well as linear knowledge, and letting them function together.

MISHLOVE: Now, let me jump ahead a little bit.

SUN: OK, go ahead.

MISHLOVE: Because I know it's something that's not always appropriate to demonstrate, and we probably won't on this program. But one of the things you're very well known for is that you chant; it's like a chant. You create a sound.

SUN: A tone.

MISHLOVE: You create a tone, and that tone, I suppose, resonates from your body, and it reaches other people, and they resonate to it, and it affects people.

SUN: I can even give you a little sample of it. Just as I'm talking now, I can begin to send energy through my voice, and there's a certain kind of resonance that's more intense, and it has just a little bit more presence to it. And that quality -- let me make just a little tone; I don't want to make too big a deal of this. I do want people to get a sense of it. It sounds a little like dolphins and whales and so on, but it's something like this: [Sings a tone].

MISHLOVE: That's wonderful.

SUN: And what that does, is it kind of tunes us; it's like a tuner, and it helps the two hemispheres work together. Often it's difficult to speak after I do it, and I usually make quite a few and they're a little deeper and a little bigger, and it depends on the people listening. But what I found they did is that they heal people; they help people's bodies open up, sometimes very demonstrably physically, but often emotionally. It's sort of like bodywork by sound, in the sense that things opened, they stood taller, intuition increased.

MISHLOVE: The sound must be a way of focusing their right brain in some sense, of activating.

SUN: It harmonizes them together. I have felt it in my own brain. To me it's very experiential. Interestingly, there has been some research on the sounds, and they are something like the Peruvian whistling pots -- you know, make the same effect with it. It has a similar effect. And what they do is harmonize the two hemispheres.

MISHLOVE: Yes, it's called the binaural beat effect.

SUN: I feel it. I feel it within me. I can just think the sound even, and it starts to bring the feeling.

MISHLOVE: You know, I was telling you on the phone earlier today -- I suppose it's worth repeating. My wife was sick, and I wanted to heal her somehow, and sometimes I practice going to sleep and I repeat, "Heal, heal," and I get into a state of mind after a period of ten, fifteen minutes where changes occur. But I thought that's not going to be enough this time, and spontaneously in my dream, I guess anticipating being with you, I began doing a sound like this silently in my mind. And it seemed as if that sound was going right into the layers of what's called the etheric or astral body, the layers of the aura, which is a very mystical, non-scientific concept, but I felt like I was accomplishing something with that.

SUN: Oh yes, very real. You know, it's kind of a shame we get hung up on the words of everything, because it really is a semantic difficulty. I myself never use the term etheric body or have never really related to that, but I speak to people who use those terms, and then I understand what they're talking about.

MISHLOVE: When you have a dream about it --

SUN: Yes, what are you going to do, right? But I feel that. I feel energy in people's bodies. I can feel that, and in fact I often show people just by sort of generating some from my hand without touching them, so they can feel it. It's like an electromagnetic current; you can actually feel it. Some people do this very easily and think almost everyone can do it, and other people think it's very bizarre. But I've found that it's really rather natural.

MISHLOVE: It seems appropriate to draw language from other cultures that deal with these experiences more readily, because our culture, I think it's fair to say, by and large has suppressed a lot of this.

SUN: Oh yes. And you know what's an interesting phenomenon? I find people who suppress it are people who naturally have a great deal, and who are basically afraid of it because, well, you know, we have burnt people at the stake for it. A lot of people certainly power trip on it and manipulate other people with it, and have insecurities and want to feel important, and so kind of play it up a lot.

MISHLOVE: What you seem to be saying is that it may be possible that the same energy, the same internal focus that is used for healing, can also be used in manipulative ways that are not healing.

SUN: Yes, well, it's just that we're all people, and some people have certain talents, and if they want attention also, they can use that to do it. And that's sometimes what makes it get off, and people always remember the people who used it badly versus the people who were earnest about it. Because when you're very earnest about it, there's usually not a lot of fanfare about it -- not that you can't have it too; I'm not trying to make a case for that. It's more normal and natural than we think. That's really the thing that I wish we would develop a semantic for it. I know the Russians call it bioplasma; at least I've heard that. And some people call it the holy spirit, who believe in charismatic religion. The Indians call it shakti, and the Orientals call it chi. And it's all the same thing. Our kind of sort of European -- I think we still have remnants of the Inquisition in our minds about being this way.

MISHLOVE: We've never had good words. You know, now I think there's a new movement. People are talking about quantum wave functions, and everybody can get excited about that, because physics is the bedrock of all scientists, and the physicists are saying it permeates all of time and space and goes beyond time and space, and it's this magical stuff that we're made out of -- probability waves.

SUN: Exactly.

MISHLOVE: If you look at it that way you get a sense, well, we're all made out of this quantum stuff.

SUN: And there is a quantum leap happening, and it's like a critical mass is reached, and then there's a whole other thing. That's how I perceive the evolutionary leap; it's exactly the words that came to me in a meditation, is that there would be a quantum leap, and it had to do with love. And again, it's so important to be clear that I don't mean make nice; I mean warmth, I mean caring, and processing out our fear and our anger and our resentment, and being aware of them, and not hating ourselves for them, and finding out where they came from and why, and how to transform them ourselves. And that communication about your fear, feelings of humiliation, being afraid to tell people how you really feel -- all that is part of healing. And when you communicate authentically, even if it's kind of sort of like this --

MISHLOVE: Creating the space to really be honest.

SUN: That's right.

MISHLOVE: Rather than as you said, making nice, which means smoothing over things, pretending that everything is lovey-dovey, when we are not really processing.

SUN: Exactly. Right. And most people are very strongly programmed to do that, and think that means love. I remember once at a lecture I gave in Southern California, a psychiatrist stood up and said, "Well, you keep talking about love." He says, "You know, you can love too much." You can't love too much. If it's too much, it's not love.


SUN: It's manipulation, it's control, it's a script, it's a drama about in the name of love.

MISHLOVE: Well, love must be one of the most often used words in the English language, and it does create some problems for people, especially since we have role models of love is what our parents did to us.

SUN: And what they did to each other. And you know, it's a funny paradox. We really long to be intimate, to be honest, to be loved, to be nurtured, to be seen for who we really are. And of course that's all the essence of healing, is providing that, facilitating that. But we've been programmed very early that "Everything but this," and "Don't ever say that," and "Always look like that," and "Always help and rescue me here." And so we get matching dynamics, particularly men and women in relationship.

MISHLOVE: My parents used to say, "Don't get involved."

SUN: Well, it's a little difficult to love if you don't get involved. I mean, even the word in-volved is to turn round together, to be together. It's funny. Our whole Western culture, and the vis-a-vis, or versus, or the legal confrontational position, is very strange really. It's a rather unique thing. Many, many cultures in the world can hardly comprehend it.

MISHLOVE: Well, ten thousand years from now we may look back and say it was an aberration of history.

SUN: I think so, a little bit. Not that it isn't useful. I have a little story I tell about understanding this leap.

MISHLOVE: We've got about a minute left.

SUN: Oh! Well, it's sort of if the world is round -- in fact, I'm going to make a bumper sticker, "When you know the earth is round, you know you can't take sides." Because when you feel the roundness -- say I'm facing east, and I want to go as far west as I can go, all I have to do is turn around; it's a sphere.

MISHLOVE: Turn around the other way.

SUN: And north, south, east, and west, the linear coordinates, they're all true, except on a sphere they aren't. You just have the whole. And that's what we're coming home to.

MISHLOVE: Well, Patricia, it's really wonderful the way you're able to integrate these various levels, from the philosophical aspects to the psychological to the mystic within you, and the way you've been able to be a mystic in the real world without losing your balance, and communicate that to everybody in a way which radiates from you and I think allows other people to discover the radiance within themselves.

SUN: Well, that's who we really are. Thanks.

MISHLOVE: Thank you very much for being with me.

SUN: Thank you, Jeff.


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